Episode 5 – Series Finale – How It All Started

Welcome to Marriage Mixed with Spencer and Shirley.

Marriage Mixed is a resource that opens the door on interracial marriage.

We share our real experiences from our interracial marriage, and let me tell you, it has not been easy, but it is rewarding.

We talk about our differences, what has worked for us, and what is still difficult.

We also share our views on important topics like food, from a white guy's perspective, and from a Haitian girl's perspective.

What is our goal?

Our goal is to reach people, like you, who may be struggling in an interracial marriage and, through the sharing of our own story, prove to you that you are not alone.

The battle for your marriage is real, and thankfully, you have reinforcements.

Our hope is that by using this resource, you will grow in love and grace for your spouse, and ultimately find hope, help, and healing for your marriage.

Sometimes, it will be tense.

And other times, you'll be laughing with us as we discover new things about each other.

Thanks for joining us.

Hello, podcast listeners.

Oh, my goodness.

Hey, everyone.

Hey, everyone, welcome to Marriage.

Hello, everyone.

Let's start over.

Hey, everyone, welcome to Marriage Mixed.

This is your hosts, Shirley and Spencer.

We are off to a rough start.

Let's say we have redone this multiple times, but on the upside, we're recording a little earlier than we usually do.

It's currently 9:19 p.m.

instead of like 11 p.m.

or something.

That's the five to 10% more energy you hear in our voices.

Some of the energy got snatched from some disagreements in the past couple minutes.

Yes.

So we're gonna start off with a couple question, or a question you can ask your spouse.

What was a couple question?

I just read off what you wrote on the text.

I know, you already described it, but any question that you can ask your spouse.

Yeah.

When they get home, or if you're already with them, just a...

Conversation starter.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So I thought of, like, is there anything I could do to help you, like, as a question that might have been something that I picked up from somewhere?

Maybe it was from family life ministry, but I'm not sure, completely.

Like, asking your spouse, is there anything I can do to help you, like, this weekend?

Or is there anything I can do to help you tonight?

Even if you don't have an answer right away, maybe, like, later on when something comes up, like, maybe a chore or something, you can say, you can tell them.

Yeah, that's a really good question.

Shirley, you've been asking me that a lot, and I appreciate it.

It's hard to answer, though.

I think it's hard to, like, say what you want, help for, at least for me.

I think the other question is kind of in line as in, like, it's easier to ask than it is to answer.

Like, is there any way, like, I could love you?

You can ask your spouse that.

Is there anything I can do to, like, show you my love, or to, you know, whatever, to help you feel more loved?

Yeah, it's not a bad question, but not every couple might be ready to ask that yet.

So, like, I think the one you had in the beginning might work a little better, but, like, how can I help you?

Asking, like, how can I love you if, you know, you're in the place like we were, or you're fighting every night, or I don't know.

It's just like, you might not be ready to, like, here's how you love me, you know what I mean?

Like, that's kind of a next level kind of thing.

Whereas, how can I help you?

Well, that's still might be hard to answer, but it's a little bit less probing.

Some people don't even know how to be loved.

I guess, if you think that question, maybe instead of asking your spouse that, you can just think of how can you love them.

Like, for Spencer, physical touch means a lot.

So, if I'm thinking, oh, how can I show Spencer I love him?

I can just try to rub his back or something, hug him or kiss him.

That can show my love for him more.

I like it when you ask that question.

It's not too hard for me to answer.

I think it's harder for me to ask, because the way that you receive love is acts of service is a big one, which I hate by my nature.

So, I know if I ask you, how can I help you?

You're going to have a long list of stuff for me to do.

So, I hesitate to ask that, so.

Oh, so you're not on that next level yet.

It's a good question though, honey.

Thanks for thinking of it.

All right, so now we're going to move into recapping the last four episodes.

Yeah, we're actually, with this episode, we're wrapping up the Into the Mix series.

So, we've covered a lot of ground.

The purpose of the Into the Mix series was to kind of get a feel for the Marriage Mixed show, for Shirley and I, and just to kind of get to know us better and where we're at.

So you already know, we talked about our traditions, kind of goes back to our heritage being different, different ways that we experienced meals in our families, which is very different.

We also had an episode covering a random argument that we had about blueberries, which was insightful into some of our past, I think.

And then, most recently, we just had the episode, Eye Contact and Head Wraps, episode 4, which kind of discovered differences that we've experienced in our marriage, and also this general marriage advice that we have gleaned over the last four years of being married, and also in an interracial marriage.

Do you have anything to add to that, Anne?

Yeah, the last episode was basically advice that we've picked up over the last four years of our marriage.

I think we are in a much better place than we were last year, the last year of our marriage.

We're on the other side, which is amazing.

We're just great to not be there.

I think the first year of our marriage was super, super hard for us.

But if we were in the first year of our marriage, and we had any idea what we were going to go through in our year four of our marriage, I guess it was year zero.

However you count years, from when we were first married to our first anniversary, that first 12 months or so was very difficult.

But year four of our marriage was really, really, really hard, and I don't think we could have ever predicted that it was going to be so hard.

So if you're listening to us, and we have all this advice, and we sound like a happy, lucky couple or whatever, yeah, we've been through it, for sure.

Yeah.

Like, we've had a rough go, as the YT people would say.

A rough go of it.

We've had, yeah, we had our spare share of troubles, and yeah, I think that we can move into our, like, how did we get here?

What made us start a ministry and a podcast?

Yeah.

How did we get here?

I agree with you that our first year was definitely really hard.

And as you were saying that, I just kept thinking about other people listening, and maybe thinking like, oh, yeah, you're saying it's really hard, but you don't know what I'm going through.

And that's fair.

We're not in your shoes at this exact moment.

But I feel confident in saying that.

We can promise you that we do have an idea, to say the least.

It has really not been easy for us.

Maybe, I don't know, you're feeling like, oh, but my spouse threw something, or I screamed, or they screamed, or whatever.

Like, we've been there.

We go through that, work through that.

Those are just really surface examples of the things that we've gone through together and throughout our marriage.

So I just wanted to throw that out there.

So you who's listening, still trying to believe that you're all alone, or not even trying, just jaded, you're really not.

These are just our experiences that we're sharing, that we know from talking to other couples, that they're struggling the same way.

So coming back again the first year was indeed very difficult.

And I remember our second anniversary just looking over that and being like, wow, that was really hard.

But being grateful that we were in a better place and thinking that that would continue, and then, like, wham, we got hit again.

And it was worse than either of us could have expected.

But it was like, the first year was hard, but we were really thinking about the second and third.

The third to the fourth year was really hard, like this last past year.

So I think in our third year, it's probably when things started going awry at some point.

I don't pretend to know exactly how.

Somewhere in there, things weren't working.

Looking back on it now, I was working a lot, and focusing in on my career too much, which is pretty common for us males.

You were at home struggling with two kids, and really wanting my help and attention.

And I was giving my best to my job, which on the surface seems honorable, but was really neglecting you guys.

So that's looking back on it.

In it, I didn't know that.

And there was a lot of strain on our marriage and our family.

And I continued to rise in my career, because that's where all my best efforts were.

And accepted a promotion to a manager, and then God kicked me in the pants.

And I felt like he was telling me that it was time to step out of my job.

So I wrestled with that, and tried to see if there was any other way that I could do it or take time, and it was pretty clear that I was supposed to step out.

There's a lot of ways that God showed that.

One of the ways he seems to love to get my attention is just making me feel so sick that I can't eat until I pray.

And he brings up whatever it is that's bothering me, or that's not bothering me, but is on his heart that he wants me to see.

I ran into that a few times, and I remember crying until I'm surely at lunch one day.

I used to be able to, I was close enough to work that I could just come back for lunch.

So I was having lunch and crying and telling her, man, I just feel like I'm supposed to quit.

And Shirley was like, yeah, I know.

No, you were like, you asked me, what do I think?

Yeah.

I guess you were like, yes.

Yeah, like I think, I think you have been wrestling with something for a little while, or something.

I think I was thinking something, but I never said it until you asked me.

Oh yeah, you were like, oh yeah, I've known that you should have done that, or that you needed to do that.

Just like you had already known.

I don't think I've said that, I know.

I think I was just like, yeah.

It kind of shocked me, so I quit crying for a minute.

I was just surprised that she was on board with that, or felt like that was something that I should do.

And it felt like a really strong confirmation that I should do it.

And I think it was literally right then that I had drafted my two weeks notice and sent it to my boss.

And he was completely shocked.

And I had to do a lot of explaining that I still liked them and all that, but that I felt like God was moving me on.

So I plunged into unemployment for what I was hoping would be just a month or two at most, because I was pretty confident in my skills.

I was making a decent amount of money and just really successful, at least from my perspective of what I was doing and my employers too.

I thought I could just do a lateral transfer of those skills and plug right back in and start making even more than I was.

But that's not what God had in mind.

Not at all.

And I literally felt like He was telling me not to even work on my resume during that time.

I remember a couple at church being all stressed for me, and they were like, well, at least you can work on your resume.

And I was like, yeah.

And I'd sit down to try and work on my resume and feel like I was going to throw up.

And I just had to stop.

And I was just like, God was saying, no, you're not supposed to work on it.

What was this like for you, by the way?

I know a little bit, but I'm just wondering, what were you feeling when I was not even working on my resume, unemployed?

I think I don't.

I think I was okay.

Really?

I think I was like, when it comes to work and money, I think you tend to be the one who's more stressed or anxious about that stuff, and I'm less so.

So, I was okay.

I was like, if that's what God wants you to do, then okay.

I think there are several times when I get stressed about money, for example, but I think out of the two of us, I'm a little bit tending towards being less stressed about that.

I think that's a really cool trait that I like about you.

I don't think you're surprised, though.

I think you must know that.

Yeah, I mean, I guess I didn't think you were that stressed, but it's just interesting to hear you, yeah, that you're not naturally, yeah, you're just not that worried about that.

I think that was a huge support to me.

I'm like, Spencer got this.

But Spencer is like the money man.

He plans everything.

Like, if he needs $100 in 10 months, he's saving $10 every month.

If I need $100 in 10 months, one month before, I would be like, oh, snap, I need $100.

Where is it going to come from?

So Spencer is like a planner and a saver.

So that's another thing, like being married to a saver who has an emergency, like we have an emergency fund saved and stuff, like it just helps to eliminate that stress.

Someone.

Someone, yeah.

We had emergency savings for about two months, three months, set aside, and I was confident that I could find a job at that time, but God did not want me to get a job at that time, and I kind of tried to sneak in and apply at a few places, because I just couldn't totally believe that God didn't want me to do anything, and I don't think God was mad at me that I did that.

I didn't get that impression or anything, but it didn't work out, and I got rejected, and eventually our money ran out for that two or three months that I had planned, and then we had to start eating into our dreams.

And that was super, super hard for me.

So I went into this like, yeah, I'm trusting God, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, I've got this.

I set aside money for this.

I've planned for this.

I'm skilled.

I'll be able to get a job.

And then it's like, God ripped that away too.

Until I was really just like, whoa, what is happening?

We went a whole other three months longer than I had ever planned without work.

And probably month five is where Marriage Mixed kind of was born.

Because during this time, you know, I'm stressed.

I'm crying.

I'm legit depressed, even though I tried to ramp up exercise, all this other stuff, to counteract it.

I still did activities.

It still worked, but I, yeah, I got super sad.

That was a heavy weight, I'm sure, because she was taking care of the kids.

Half the time, I was just crying off somewhere, trying to figure out what the heck I was doing.

What was that like for you during those moments?

I think it was definitely hard because I was like, Spencer's here, but he's not here, basically.

You're home, but you're in the room, or you're in the closet.

And it was hard, just the weight of your sadness.

It was also hard to just not know what we were going to do.

What to do.

I really appreciate how you didn't despair, honey, during that time.

I wasn't really leaning, and I was just...

I mean, you still, you're like, prayed all the time, and you went to the forest and stuff.

I don't think you did everything wrong or something.

You definitely prayed a lot about what God wanted us to do.

You're just being led by God, of like applying to different jobs and stuff like that.

You went on, like you did some interviews.

You were trying, you were trying that.

Like you were seeking God's guidance.

Now we did good stuff during that time, too.

What are you thinking of?

Like just, we did practical stuff during that time.

Like you have been working a lot.

For, like every time we had a baby, you only had a week off, which is like nothing.

Maybe it doesn't matter that much to you, but as a mom, it's like nothing.

You just had a baby.

Second time you had a baby, now you have another kid at home.

So I told some people, like, it's like the maternity leave I never had.

Because other people would have, like, longer with their, like other spouses would have longer with their, with their wives, but I didn't have that.

Yeah, so even, like, going to the doctor, I think, with the kids, or, like, buying some furniture stuff around the house that we, like, never really have time for.

Because, like, the only time we have was, like, weekends, and that can just get swallowed up.

Or, like, just little stuff.

Um, whatever.

Yeah, there's other things, too.

I can't quite think of them all.

Um, it wasn't all bad.

You're right.

It was a good opportunity for me just to really slow down.

Like, slow way down.

You learned a lot.

I learned so much.

You had a list.

What are some things you learned during that time?

Over.

Part of the biggest thing that I learned was that I didn't know when I stepped down from my career there in my sales job that I didn't know the position that my family was in or how much they needed me.

I thought I was doing it for other reasons that were good, but they weren't the real reasons.

I had run into some issues with stuff that I was in the secular sales force.

They wanted me to do some things that just didn't line up with my beliefs as a Christian.

I was struggling with that.

So I thought in my head that that was at least a big part of the reason that I was stepping down.

But the biggest reason that I stepped down, that God showed me almost immediately, was that I had been putting my career before my family.

And my pastor said something.

He said, our first ministry is to our family.

And that really struck with me.

That basically, my family is, has to come first.

Obviously, God comes first, he's the head.

But my right shoulder, my right arm is you guys.

That's the biggest thing.

The show being a bunch of other things, the importance of character and leadership, that most leaders fail when they compromise their values.

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about, I'm reading off this list, a whole key analogy.

Hosting in that means to share.

Like something about close to home or something.

Yeah.

There was something in the, some, yeah, this will hit some people differently, but God definitely used it in my life.

Will God work this way for you?

I don't know, but here's how he worked for me.

My pastor, when I shared with him that I had stepped down, shared a story with me.

He's like, I feel like God's showing me that you just need to take a key and put it in the door and open it.

I was like, gee thanks, that's weird, and I don't like that.

I didn't say that, but I just put it in my back pocket.

I was like, that is super weird.

I told my best friend, said the same thing to me, almost forbade him.

Then I started feeling like, oh, this is kind of weird, and I should probably pay attention to it.

And I started praying and wondering.

And then one of my missionary friends, as I told him the story, I wear a key around my neck.

And he was like, well, is it that key around your neck?

I was like, no, this is just my house key.

I just wear this when I'm...

I started wearing my key like this one.

I started running, so I don't have to carry keys around.

And we laughed.

And then it struck me, I don't know when, a day or so later, and I was like, it is the key around my neck.

The key around my neck is my house key.

It goes to my home, and it's hanging over my heart.

And it's kind of a reminder that...

it is a reminder that you guys are over my heart, that you come first, and that I look through you guys as my lens.

So I quit asking, is this good for my employer?

And I started asking, is this good for my family?

So if my employer wants me to do something, now I measure it against my family.

Is this going to benefit my family more than it just benefits my career or my business?

That's the biggest thing that God taught me.

There's other things too, but for the sake of time, we don't have to go through all that.

Yeah, so to wrap it up, I felt like God wanted us to do ministry, but also to work.

So, we felt like God, like, revealed this suspenser.

Well, to you too.

At 2 a.m.

in the morning, you rolled over when I could sleep, because I was having more pain in my stomach.

And you said, do you think God's calling you to ministry?

Well, that was before we knew what it was.

Yeah, that was before we knew what it was.

We didn't even know what it was then.

I was just feeling sick for no reason.

Couldn't sleep.

And keeping you up too, with my misery.

And then you were like...

And then there was other stuff too, that didn't happen, but maybe they'll happen one day.

Like, wondering if we're supposed to move.

Thinking about moving.

I was thinking about the state, and then you started thinking out of the country.

But, yeah, to sum it up, like thinking, I felt like I had less to ministry, and to still work at the same time.

So, there's a whole other story of how...

I don't even think I should say there's a whole other story, because then someone's going to want to hear the story.

Like, a whole other story of how we figured out that God wanted us to do this.

Like, this ministry.

Well, it doesn't have to take long.

How could it not?

I mean...

Well, there's a whole other story of how God led us specifically to mixed marriage ministry.

Yeah, basically, we were supposed to go see some friends, take a trip to go see some friends, a road trip, and something happened, and we couldn't go see them anymore.

And our bags were literally all packed, ready to go the next...

leave early the next morning.

And I was just like, maybe God still wants us to go, and just really bothered by that, not go there, but just drive, even though we had no idea where we were going.

You can't breeze over that, though, because...

I'm not breezing over it.

No, just your personality, that...

Shirley's pretty quiet, that's why this show is so interesting to me, because I get to hear her share so many different things.

She's making this face right now.

I'm not quiet.

She has a beautiful laugh.

So, she'd chime in with this whole thing, like, what are we doing, where are we going, what's God doing?

But most of the time, she's pretty quiet.

But then when it comes time to go on this trip, and we have all our bags packed, and then our friends have to cancel, and we're sitting there, it'd be a time where I'd expect her to be quiet.

And, you know, I'm just like, I guess we're not going.

Now continue.

So, you felt like...

I just, I was just troubled, like, maybe we should still go.

I don't know if I even mentioned it, so...

Like, I just thought it before you even went to sleep that night.

And maybe kept waking up at night or something, thinking about it or whatever.

And just early the next morning, I told him, and did you agree?

Yeah, I was just surprised in her, Shirley's attitude with it, was like, I think we should still go.

She was, like, fighting it.

So I was really surprised.

It was not like Shirley, and Shirley doesn't even like road trips.

I like road trips.

I mean, I guess I don't like driving for that long.

Yeah, so we still went, felt silly.

There was, like, backups.

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

I wanted to turn around at one point, because I was like, this is literally so stupid.

What if God's not in this?

And then the whole, the traffic going the other direction completely backed up, and it was impossible to turn around for miles and miles and miles.

So we kept going.

And there was also something inspirational on the radio.

I forgot what it was.

God did so many things.

I told you earlier.

Let me try to see if I can find it, because I wrote it down.

Spencer doubting out loud sees all the traffic going in the other direction, points it out to me over and over, says we couldn't go back if we wanted to.

I said we could, it would just take a while.

I turned on the radio to try to hear the traffic report.

Spencer feels crazy.

Waivers between heading back home or not says he's done wavering.

11, 11 a.m.

said that literally right before we got on the highway.

And there was a song on the radio by Control by 10th Avenue North.

God, you don't need me, but somehow you want me, oh how you love me.

Somehow that frees me to take my hands off of my life and the way it should go.

God, you don't need me, but somehow you want me, oh how you love me.

Somehow that frees me to open my hands up and give you control, I give you control.

So, that was a good song.

Anyway, so we drove forever that day, it felt like, and only made it to the next...

It's like those nightmares when you're running, but you're only going two miles per hour, the monster's getting closer.

With two kids, was it two by then?

Yeah, two kids.

Every time we stopped, it took forever, so we didn't get much anywhere.

And then we checked into this rinky-dinky hotel, and then we went out, went to dinner.

This is not really an important part of the story, but I just want to say how rinky-dink the area is.

Went to dinner in a restaurant right next to the hotel.

The host was just like all over the place.

Don't say that.

He was all over the place, just like this young teenage guy.

He put us in this table that was probably sticky.

I don't know.

There was probably food underneath the table.

There was this couple next to us.

Who slipped or something.

None of the staff came to see her.

Oh, they did remember they came.

Eventually, they came.

This whole time, nobody even comes and gives us...

Did someone come and give us a menu, or was it only the host?

We were just sitting there for so long.

It was just like, we need to leave.

Because no one has come.

If nobody has come in this long, how long will it take us to get our food?

Well, we walked back to the hotel and went to Jake Filet, and that was better than the other restaurant.

Anyway, it was a rinky-dinky town.

Anyway, I digress.

That night, God revealed to Spencer this ministry, and that's how we got here.

Yes, he did.

That very night, I threw a video from a friend who had really encouraged me.

Yeah.

Basically, just thinking, what if we created a space for couples who are struggling, just like us, and feeling alone in their interracial marriages, where they can come together and just hear people share and know that they're not alone.

So, that's how this started.

It really wasn't our ideas.

It was really God's gracious leading.

We're super grateful and excited to really just share with you guys our hearts and connect with you, and hopefully provide you hope.

I mean, hopefully God gives you hope through us and our story and how He's working on us.

What's next, my dear?

Shirley's fun fact.

Alright, so I'll share about brown butter quickly.

If you want to elevate your baking, you can try to make brown butter, which is basically you're toasting the milk solids, I think, in the butter, and it gives it like a really nutty flavor.

So the best way to make brown butter is to use unsalted butter because salted butter foams more than unsalted.

So it will make it harder for you to see when the butter browns.

I feel like this is not something that's quick to share, but you can look it up yourself on how to make brown butter.

Be careful not to burn it.

You have to keep it moving, whisking it with a whisk or spatula.

Use a light colored pan.

What I do is I use brown butter for cookies.

I use it half and half with regular butter.

I use it to make cinnamon honey butter, which we spread on bread.

I didn't know you did it half and half in the cookies.

Yeah, because I think all is too much.

No wonder they're so good.

Yeah.

So another general tip for brown butter is when you're making brown butter, you're losing some of the liquid.

So for every half a cup of butter that you're using, add another tablespoon so that it can equal out.

So let's say your recipe calls for half a cup of butter, and you want to make brown butter.

Instead, use half a cup plus one tablespoon so it can equal back the moisture content.

Man, Shirley's a wizard.

Don't call me a wizard on the Christian podcast.

All right, Miss Pious One.

What?

I am not that.

What are you?

I am a home baker.

Why do you have your nose all scrunched up like that?

Yes, so I learned a lot of stuff from the internet.

I learned this from the internet.

What?

I learned about brown butter.

You sound like you're 70 plus when you're like, I learned this from the internet.

I did learn this from the internet.

I seen, I seen a, I seen a, what do you call them little short videos on YouTube?

I seen a little short video on YouTube about brown butter, and they made me start making brown butter.

YouTube tics?

Is that what they're called?

Talk shorts?

Alright.

Yes.

Brown butter.

It's delicious.

Do you want to end with a prayer?

Thank you, Father, just being able to talk through the story that you've given us, the testimony.

Thank you so much for how you've met us in this ministry, just being able to share with other people what we've gone through and how much that's encouraged us, let me know there's purpose to our pain.

That's what someone said to me.

I think that's really good.

I pray that you would put purpose to everyone else's pain that they might be feeling who's listening.

If they're feeling hopeless or doubting their marriage, doubting your sovereignty in their marriage, doubting their spouse, I pray that you would be the solid rock that they need, that they can break on, and that you would rebuild them, either the potter or the clay.

I pray that we wouldn't question the features you want to put on us, who you want to join us to, but that we would be grateful and trust you and trust that there is light at the end of the tunnel, around the corner, and that we don't know what each day can bring.

That's how it was for us, and I know that's how it will be for all of your children who are listening, and even those who might not be your children yet.

In your name I pray, Amen.

Dear God, I just pray that you'll help someone in a difficult season of their marriage, know that they're not alone, and there is sunlight on the other side, that the storm won't last, but that it will water the grass.

Amen.

Don't look at me, y'all.

That was not me, that was the Lord.

So good.

The storm's watering the grass.

Surely just did a very black lady head roll just now.

Alright.

Thanks for joining us in the mix.

In the mix.