Episode 8 – Seeing in Black, White, and Red

Welcome to Marriage Mixed with Spencer and Shirley.

Marriage Mixed is a resource that opens the door on interracial marriage.

We share real experiences from our interracial marriage, and let me tell you, it has not been easy, but it is rewarding.

We talk about our differences, what has worked for us, and what is still difficult.

We also share our views on important topics, like food, from a white guy's perspective, and from a Haitian girl's perspective.

What is our goal?

Our goal is to reach people like you, who may be struggling in an interracial marriage, and through the sharing of our own story, prove to you that you are not alone.

The battle for your marriage is real, and thankfully, you have reinforcements.

Our hope is that by using this resource, you will grow in love and grace for your spouse, and ultimately find hope, help, and healing for your marriage.

Sometimes it will be tense, and other times you'll be laughing with us as we discover new things about each other.

Thank you for joining us and enjoy this episode of Marriage Mixed.

Welcome to Marriage Mixed with Spencer and Shirley.

Hello.

Are you saying hello to me or to our guests?

I'm not thinking that deeply.

Hello.

Well, I'd be saying hello to you, actually.

I'm saying hello to the podcast.

Well, tonight we're gonna be talking about black, white, and red.

Seeing in black, white, and red.

So, kind of fits with Marriage Mixed, black and white couples, but it's a little different than you would think it might be.

Before we get into that, though, we need a couple of questions.

No, we don't have one ready.

Do you have one?

Well, this is one that I got off of Family Life's, an email Family Life sent recently.

It was, I don't know, is that right to use their content for this?

I mean, they put questions for...

You gave them credit.

Yeah, so they put questions that you can ask each other.

So one of the questions was, was something on your bucket list or something like that, which I asked you recently?

What did I say?

Maybe you said calisthenics stuff.

Did you?

I did.

I talked about wanting to go to Israel.

Yeah, you said you want to go to Israel, and maybe did you say you wanted to do a handstand or a plank push up or something like that?

Full planche.

Yeah, that's a recent goal of mine.

What's on your bucket list?

I would say maybe making a vanilla cake with vanilla bean, vanilla bean paste.

So this can be done like tomorrow?

No, I mean, it could be if I had vanilla bean paste, but I don't.

Is this a way to ask for vanilla bean paste from your husband?

No, but vanilla bean paste is not necessarily cheap.

And it's not preserved as long as vanilla extract, I don't think, because vanilla extract is an alcohol.

I think vanilla bean paste is in sugar, and I don't know what else.

So is it like the guts from the vanilla bean?

Yeah, probably.

And whatever else is in the paste, which is sugar and maybe other stuff.

Does it have to be from like a fresh vanilla bean, or can you just do it from like the ones you buy that are dried online?

No, it's like a product, vanilla bean paste.

Hmm.

But I do want to make a vanilla cake, but I haven't really had that kick as much.

But like a couple months ago, I really wanted to make a vanilla vanilla cake with vanilla bean paste, but we didn't have and vanilla bean paste in the icing.

But we don't have vanilla bean paste.

You never told me about it until now.

I think I told you.

No, you definitely didn't.

I've never even heard the words vanilla bean paste until you spoke them today.

Oh, well, I guess we should move on from this.

But yeah, you can ask your spouse, what's something on your bucket list?

That's like a question.

And that's a good one because it's not super threatening.

You can ask a stranger even.

So it shouldn't be that hard to ask your spouse.

Go ahead and do it.

But today's topic, I think, is a good one.

Basically, exploring some concepts that we've been learning.

Literally yesterday.

I mean, we've always have learned it.

Yeah, we've been learning it over time.

We're not experts by any means.

But that's what this is about, sharing with you all our journey, which will probably cross paths with your journey at some point.

So last night, we had a counseling session, which was really good with our counselor.

And one of the things he said was, like, conflict brings you to, like, a younger place.

And saying, like, it makes you seem black and white, basically.

I'm pulling up my notes.

And, like, repair requires maturity, and I thought of seeing in color.

So, like, I think it's really true that when you're in conflict, you are, like, immature, like you are in a younger place.

You might even, like, kind of become a kid, really, because you're, like, experiencing the conflict and some things that are not happening, as, like, it might be triggering stuff to...

triggering stuff in you from your childhood.

Do you want to challenge?

Do I want to challenge?

Go ahead.

As you share this stuff, saying, I instead of you...

Shirley's face just now.

The eyebrows did together.

The lips came out.

No, it's so much easier to say you.

I mean, I'm not saying you.

I know, but you're talking about your own experiences at some level.

I'm not exactly talking about my own experience.

It's just a challenge.

If you're not up for the challenge, that's okay.

I mean, am I that mature yet?

I mean, I guess I could choose.

I mean...

It's a choice.

Like, I can definitely say that I can see how it brings out the kid in me.

Like, I can see that there's a lack of maturity, that in moments of intense conflict, I am often seeking to feel okay and feel regulated by your touch or by us just being able to speak if we're in a place where we can't even speak to each other.

Yeah, it's like a little kid, you know, crying kind of, in a way.

Like, come give me attention, make me okay.

And it sucks, but it is what it is.

Mm-hmm.

So, yeah, conflict makes you...

You see in black and white, like, you might only see, like, this fact and that fact instead of, like, seeing in color, which I would say is like seeing all the nuances of the situation, like seeing the layers, seeing, like, the history, seeing the childhood, the everything, like all the different details of it.

You might only see, like, what's making you angry or they did this, they did that, like, the facts.

You're just seeing in black and white.

You're not seeing in color.

And then he said, like, repair requires maturity.

Like, I guess in order to repair a relationship, it requires, like, to be mature, because I know sometimes when we're, like, arguing, like, I feel like I have a choice between, like, do this or do that, and sometimes I don't choose, like, either I'm not mature enough or I really just choose not to, like, do something that might be better for our relationship.

Like, like, maybe I know it would be really comforting to Spencer to reach out to him or something or, like, to say, I love you or something, but maybe I just choose not to.

Like, is that maturity, immaturity in me, or is that just choosing not to do it?

I don't know where I'm going with this.

Going down your own introspective path to try and figure out why you do certain things is what it sounds like.

Which I spoke about a little bit in the last podcast.

I guess I kind of already shared some of my issues of immaturity.

One thing that I struggle with when I get super dysregulated, which I guess, I don't know, would bring us to the next point, which I don't know if we're ready to go there yet.

You look like you had something else you wanted to touch on.

Go ahead.

Yeah, I wanted to say something, but I'm trying to remember it.

Here we are again, two tired parents trying to do this.

Trying to remember.

What was I going to say?

Oh, I was asking our counselor for confirmation.

Please tell us that you agree that our marriage is so difficult.

Or like what's so difficult, whatever.

Please just, I feel like he has never gave us confirmation.

Why would he?

Because I want to.

So unprofessional.

I was like, oh, you guys are definitely the worst couple I've ever had.

I'm not saying to say we're the worst couple.

I just wanted to be like, man, you guys have it rough.

Like y'all have a hard marriage.

Like he never really has ever.

Even when I asked him last night, I was like, please tell us that we, like it's been hard for us.

He did not.

He did not say yes, it has been hard for you.

He said anything good is going to involve pain.

Yeah, he said something about suffering, like something about art, something.

Anyway, but what he did say was that the marriages that are like not the best are the ones where there's two people who have hard hearts, like that don't want to like change or work.

So I think that's kind of where I like think of the maturity thing there.

You actually have to be mature enough to make your marriage work, to work on the issues at hand.

If you're immature, you're rigid and you won't see past whatever.

But if you can grow in maturity, like my workout lady says, get 1% better every day.

If you can grow in maturity just a little bit to work on the conflict in your marriage and not be rigid, that would help your marriage.

One thing on that is we may not realize that we're being rigid in the first place.

It's undetectable sometimes.

For myself, with the budget in the beginning, I grew up being taught how to do the budget and having just naturally strong inclinations about the budget and really offering you zero, or I don't know, not being able to see your perspective at all really on that stuff.

And I wasn't even aware that that was really an option.

It was just like, no, this is how it's done.

There's not a different way to do this basically.

So it's not the greatest example, but I think sometimes we're not even aware.

Like I know when I've interacted with you, sometimes it's like, sometimes you're like, no, it has to like, there's no other option.

And it's no, there is.

It's just so outside of our perspective.

Like our counselor said again, like there's a whole world just beyond your own perspective.

I love that.

He said, there's a whole world waiting for you outside of your point of view, which is really good.

He was dropping gems last night.

Like for real, I feel like we're just stealing his words.

He gave us permission.

So he, yeah, he was giving me some really good.

So I think what you said can like go into two paths, one of them, which I forgot.

But the second one is like the whole world waiting for you.

There's a whole world waiting for you outside of your point of view.

Oh, the one point is like to get counseling.

Like you were saying during counseling.

Man, my thoughts are not good tonight.

You were saying during counseling that.

The different perspective thing, like trusting someone else's.

Just having an intermediate.

He was there.

A mediator, referee.

A referee to our conflict.

Sometimes, yeah, we can only see our perspective, like our own perspective.

How could they possibly think a different way than, this is how it, you know, you're just so rigid, how could you possibly see it another way?

But having a counselor in the middle of you can help you to see, oh, you're wrong, and you're wrong, and you're right, and you're right, you know?

It's not just you're wrong and you're wrong.

I mean, you're wrong and you're right.

There can be the color, the nuances, not just black and white, like he's wrong and I'm right.

So I think it's like a good, a good, like, it's good to like have counsel.

It's good to have a counselor if you can, like for your marriage if you need it.

A Christian counselor, someone who, you know, yeah, who's gonna fight for your marriage with you guys, who can be your referee or can help you guys see color.

I think it's especially useful when both of y'all are getting to the point where your hearts are hard, which means you have conflict and there's no conversations about it and kind of start losing interest in each other, you know, just not talking to avoid arguing, things like that.

I feel like are good indicators that counseling would help because the counselor can open the floor for both you guys in a way that you might not be able to do on your own.

I feel like counseling fills the role that the older generation could have filled or should have filled, but didn't really have the opportunity, at least here in the West.

We don't really have them.

It's hard to let, I mean, it depends.

Like you wouldn't want to let your parents in to every struggle of your marriage.

But I guess if it's like an older couple in the church who's unattached to both of you guys, that's different.

Yeah, I didn't mean like your own parents.

I just mean like the older community, like every other culture has an older community.

And the old people are, that's something that our speaker at our church was saying recently is that when he's overseas, like people literally will stop to pay him respect because of his age.

He laughed, you know, saying, people respect me overseas because I'm older or whatever.

He's like, but here in America, it's actually looked down upon to be old, but in other places, I don't know, it's kind of a tangent, but I think that's why counseling is so valuable in the US because we don't have that, we don't have anyone like that looking over us or that we can turn to or that we respect who has this experience from life and learned the hard lessons and can set us straight.

We don't submit ourselves to anybody.

And in counseling, you're paying someone, so you're more inclined to submit to it because you're like, dang, I'm paying for advice, I'd better listen to what this person is saying.

That's how you see it?

Yeah, it's like, I'm paying hundreds of dollars for this.

I'd better submit to what he's saying if I actually, or else why am I doing it?

So kind of a whole different tangent.

The other way that what you were saying could go is just the whole world waiting for you outside of your point of view thing.

I think that was really, really good, like, because you might only see things one way.

A couple years ago, I wrote in this little five-year, five-minute journal.

Well, I don't know exactly how long ago it was that I wrote in.

Around this time of the month, I wrote that I tried over-easy eggs for the first time, and they're buttery and stuff.

And me, Spencer wanted me to try them.

I don't know if I tried them the first time he asked me to or if he had to ask me a couple times.

But I was like, I don't want to eat raw eggs.

I want to eat runny eggs.

I don't even like eggs that much, probably because the way I grew up eating them, they were overcooked.

Like, my goodness, like, you know, that's probably the only thing I made at home.

And like as a little, you know, young person, I'm making some eggs.

Cook it, cook it, cook it.

It's all so overdone.

I didn't even know it was so overdone.

But I watched a video recently with someone who didn't overdo their eggs.

I'm like, man, that might taste good.

Anyway, I tried over easy eggs and it was good.

Like Spencer put some butter on toast.

And also after we got married, I started using real butter and I gained a lot of weight.

So thanks, Spencer, because you introduced me to butter.

Anyway, yeah, so I tried it and it actually tasted good.

And I'm Haitian and we don't eat, you know, egg over easy eggs like that.

So like there was a whole world waiting for me outside of my point of view.

And even our three year old eats those eggs, like she'll eat, see me eating them, want some.

Like recently we were eating some and it's like, what three year old dips their toast into like an over easy egg and eats it?

Like so, so interesting.

And I also wanted to say another thing.

Black people, they don't want, like some black people don't want, or some people don't want their steak to be like medium well or whatever.

Medium would be probably, but yeah, go ahead.

They want it to be well done.

They don't want it to be mooing it.

But like, we're not the inventors of this dish.

We're not the originators.

It's really not supposed to be well done.

It's going to be chewy.

But if it's medium well or whatever, medium, it's actually going to be good.

Like it's still going to be cooked.

It's actually going to be more tender, you know, so step out of your point of view and actually taste it, you know, for example.

Mm-hmm.

Thanks for sharing that.

It's fun to hear those stories.

Yeah, I never had like my stuff, my like burgers medium well or whatever until we were married and they're actually pretty good like that.

Mm-hmm.

I'm thinking a big thing for me that I've been learning recently that is very counter my culture, and I think a lot of white culture.

I'm willing to say that is the giving and receiving aspect of Haitian culture in particular.

So when we got married, Shirley's dad gifted us so much money.

It was ludicrous in my mind.

He just gave it to us.

Here you go.

Here's all this money.

And then he gave us the car that Shirley was driving.

It belonged to him, but he just gave it to us.

I mean, but it was already paid off.

It was my sister's first.

I would say he was very happy to pass off those insurance bills.

He went to that room so quick.

Here you go, bro.

He got me the papers.

But that's something totally foreign to me.

Anytime you leave a Haitian household, they're going to load you up with everything they can find.

They don't have food, then they'll start handing you like candlesticks or something.

They're going to give you something.

Yeah, I like that about my culture.

I can go into my parents' house and literally take whatever I want, and they'll be like, take it.

I can read their fridge or whatever.

Like, take whatever.

That's very different from what I grew up with, which is like we try really hard to respect other people's things.

And if it's offered to us out of courtesy, they'll refuse it.

It's kind of like the cultural thing.

So for me, learning to accept that with grace, learning to ask for help, those are all big things that I feel like I'm learning from your culture.

Like, I love how good you are at giving gifts and thinking of what other people need and giving it to them.

In my own experience, it's like you can fend for yourself, and there's like pride in that.

And you know, there's good in everything, but not in everything.

There's good to both sides, but that's something that I'm learning, which is very hard for me to be...

To take something from someone means that in some way, I feel like I owe them, and I'm dependent, and I don't want to have that feeling.

Do you want to speak more on dependency?

I don't know how much energy I have to go into all that right now.

I can read a few verses.

Proverbs 12 verse 15, Fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others.

I think one thing you said in counseling yesterday was that when enough people are telling you the same thing, you tend to believe they're right.

Because you were thinking of something one way and everyone else was telling you something else.

So you're like, man, I guess they're right, because everyone is saying the same thing.

I think this verse is good, too.

Proverbs 12, 18.

Some people make cutting remarks, but the words of the wise bring healing.

Proverbs 19, verse 20.

Get all the advice and instruction you can, so you will be wise the rest of your life.

And Proverbs 20, verse 5.

The purpose in a man's heart is like deep water, but a man of understanding will draw it out.

And I thought, like, I don't know the exact interpretation of that verse, but it just made me think of counseling.

Just like, I don't know, that a counselor can help you with the things in your heart, I guess, I'll say.

Draw it out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like I only tuned in to that last one.

Let me see.

Yeah, get all the advice.

Was it just these two that you read?

That's scary, because we all have stories, so fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others.

We've all seen somebody who is doing something that they think is right, and we clearly know is wrong.

That's terrifying to watch them, and just know that they're going to pay the price.

So we don't want to be doing that.

But we still haven't covered one point, which is where we've talked about the scene, black and white, which you can sum up as being rigid, or seeing just through the lens of our own perspective, not getting to see the world beyond our own perspective that's waiting for us, for open to it, which sometimes we can only see by trusting what other people are saying, like to actually trust someone enough to not believe ourselves and to believe them instead.

That's a huge step.

And don't our spouses make us better because they can see stuff that we can't, and put words to things and pray for us and love us.

And that's a huge privilege to have as a spouse, is that we can see those things.

So there's the one side, which is for you and for me, which is are we listening to what our spouses are saying, because we should be, because they can see stuff that we can't.

But then on the other end of that, when you can see something in your spouse, to handle that with great care, because that's a very vulnerable thing, and it's easy when we can see the dirt and the skeletons that somebody has to attack them with it when we're feeling hurt.

But that's a terrible thing to do.

And I think sometimes if we don't say anything about something, I'm not thinking of a spouse right now, but if we don't say anything about a certain bothersome trait or whatever, we might think the person really knows.

How could they not know?

But they really might not know.

They can be someone who talks too much, and they just don't get it, let's say.

And you might be like, how can this person not know they talk so much?

How could they do this or whatever?

You really think they know, and maybe you might explode on them one day, but maybe they really, really don't know, and no one ever sat them down to tell them.

Have you ever told someone that they talk too much?

Not exactly.

I mean, probably in our relationship, I was...

I don't know.

I don't know.

The last point of seeing red...

Wait, have you ever told someone that?

You have, I think.

I don't know if you want to share the story here, just in case that person is listening or something.

No, I mean, if you can do it in love, it's worth doing.

If you can do it in love, if it's bothering you, like if you feel bothered every time you're around somebody, and you care enough to be around, or you're going to be around a lot because you work with, you know, or whatever, it means you should say something.

That's what that feeling means.

We got this weird thing where we...

Most of us, I think, don't say something, and we're like, I just have to live with this annoying feeling.

It's like, no, just say something.

Don't be a jerk.

Just, you know, tell the person.

I told somebody before that they talk way too much, and he actually listened.

He couldn't believe it.

He was so apologetic.

That's probably the first person who ever told him.

It was probably so sad.

Yeah, I was like...

Did you say it nicely?

Yeah, I was just like, you keep...

I can't remember how I said it, but basically I was like, I never have a chance to say anything, and it makes me not want to hang around you because I have no space to speak.

He was so apologetic.

And sometimes they're not like...

The person's not trying to be the hogger of attention or something.

Sometimes people might be nervous, and that's why they keep talking.

But it's kind of a rabbit trail.

The last point...

It's seeing in red.

Yeah.

So seeing in black and white might be our default, which is a little bit more passive.

But seeing in red is when, okay, at this point, we've made each other really angry or we're super freaked out and dysregulated because something is triggering us.

She usually goes back to something beyond just our spouses, but we'll save that for another podcast.

Once we're there...

Well, one, being aware of when you're starting to see red is a big thing.

Knowing when you are dysregulated.

Basically, in counseling, we've learned, and there's a lot of medical stuff going on now, so it's probably not news to anybody, but you've got a limbic part of your brain and your prefrontal cortex.

The prefrontal cortex is where you do your higher level thinking, decision making stuff, and then the limbic part of your brain is fight or flight.

Just get me through so that I'm still alive.

And when you get into a heated argument, you've moved into the limbic zone, and now you're fight or flight.

That subtle shift is super important to pay attention to because there's nothing productive that can happen when you're in that state.

If one of you is in that state, there's no progress that can be made.

It has to stop, unless you just want punishment.

If both of you guys are in that state, then, you know, oh man, take some time away from each other.

Go call a friend, each of you.

You said that you've seen red before?

What does that mean?

It's just an expression.

It's probably a white expression, since you don't seem familiar with it.

Oh, so you didn't actually see red?

No, it's just an expression.

It's just like you're so filled with anger or whatever that you can't process anything else.

I think everyone sees red, male and female.

Basically, if you get to that point, I don't know what the advice would be because it's kind of too late.

Well, just recognizing it.

So for me, something shifts, and I start thinking crazy thoughts about how I want to put my fist through a wall, or maybe if I flip the dresser, that would be a good solution to this problem.

How would you flip a dresser?

Oh, I can't believe me.

It's not even anything to be proud of.

It's pretty heavy with all those clothes in there.

Yeah, so when I start getting ideas like that, and I'm still standing there, I'm still quiet, I'm whatever, but if those thoughts are going on, then I'm already crossed the line, and something really bad is about to happen.

And I'm really not proud of it.

There's...

But yeah, I can...

For me, I can tell that shift has taken place, and I have to take special care of myself.

I can't ask my wife to regulate me at that point.

I have to very quickly regulate myself, and I can let her know, hey, I am way out of...

Like, I'm gone right now.

I'm over the edge.

And hopefully, if we're practicing our maturity, she can create some space for me, and I can also take leave, and we can come back when we're not...

You know, when my hair isn't on fire.

But I think it happens for you too.

So I was wondering if you would speak on that a little bit from your perspective of when you're seeing red.

I don't know.

I probably...

There's probably just times when I don't want to keep speaking about something, and I probably say that I don't want to.

Like you're just done talking.

Yeah, and then you keep going.

And for some reason...

Like we just keep going, and then I probably say it again or something.

So I think it's kind of hard in like conflicts to really hear when someone is like...

Like I'm reaching a point.

It's like...

It's almost like you hear the words, but you don't understand completely how the person is feeling.

So it's like doesn't have as much gravity.

Is that what you say?

It doesn't have as much weight as...

Yeah.

Yeah, so I think I was thinking of the window of tolerance.

Our neighbors said they have like a safe word or something that they use.

So that's something you could practice in your relationship when you just need a break.

But yeah, it's good to realize when you're nearing the edge or the end of your window of tolerance and when you can't tolerate something anymore and things are going to spin out of control and it's going to become like a huge mess and to just be able to step away.

I think we probably need to get better at it, just respecting each other's and really hearing the words that each other is saying when we say, like maybe when I say, like I don't want to talk about it anymore and whatever it is that you might say.

Yeah.

And there's certain triggers too, which is something I just thought of.

I think each couple has triggers that can be identified.

Like for Shirley, if I'm leaning in, even if I'm not seeing red, if I'm leaning in when she's reached the point where she doesn't want to talk anymore and has said that, then at that point, she's seen, you know, quote unquote seen red or dysregulated, that's a trigger for her.

If I keep going, it's not going to be pretty.

And I need to respect that.

And for me, it would be like your tone, like when you're speaking to me about something that you're upset about, like the tone is just like a laser into my soul.

And I can't, there's a point that I reach where I can't handle it.

Mm-hmm, like you hear the tone more than the words.

Mm-hmm.

So that's us.

For you guys, it'll be different.

If you really stop and think, like I had to stop and think about Shirley's, but you might figure out, oh, this really sets them off.

That's something to be extra respectful about.

Okay, so to end, I'll share like just like something that I guess was, I don't know, some wisdom that I got, just about like love languages, I guess.

So to me, I think the saying actions, so the saying actions speaks louder than words.

It sounds like wisdom, but for some people, actions do speak louder than words, while for other people, words speak louder than actions.

So for me, like if you do something for me, that's gonna mean more to me than like saying something to me, like showing me you love me by doing this thing for me is gonna speak more loud to me than just saying you love me.

Like when we were dating, you used to say, I love you a lot.

And like in the beginning, or whenever we started saying, I love you, and I didn't really say it back, it was like I already said it once, you know, that's enough.

But for you, you wanted that confirmation, like that I love you back, like those words meant a lot to you.

So basically what I'm trying to say is, like actions speak louder than words, like there's two sides of that, actions do speak louder than words.

If you're a person like that, is loved more deeply by actions than words, but some people are loved more deeply with words than actions.

So if your spouse really feels love with words, you really need to tell them, you look handsome, I really love you, I really appreciate that about you, or whatever.

And then, do you want to say anything with that?

Not at this moment.

Then another thing I thought of is kissing a boo boo and making it feel all better.

I feel like that feels like a lie to me, but I realized to me, kissing my boo boo is not going to make it feel all better, but to someone else, kissing a boo boo is going to make it feel better, actually, because they feel so loved by physicalness.

They feel so loved by a hug or a kiss or something.

Our younger daughter, she's definitely a physical affection person.

She stops crying immediately if you hug her.

She's throwing a tantrum.

I realize I can be like, do you want a hug?

And she'll want a hug, and she'll calm right down.

So for her, the affection means so much.

But for our older daughter, today, we're in here, and you were touching our younger daughter, and she enjoyed it.

And then you were touching our older daughter, and she was taking your hands off of her, and she was like, I don't want you to touch me right now.

So she's not a physical affection person.

So I guess what I'm just trying to say is, love people, love your spouse how they feel loved.

It might not be how you feel loved.

It's a good point.

It's hard to do.

More maturity to grow in, loving outside of what we naturally are inclined to.

Something I talk about with my guys a lot, my guys a lot is how uncomfortable life can be and all these things.

And that's really like the goal, because basically we grow when things are hard.

If they're easy, there's no maturity required, no growth, no character.

But if you're continually doing those things and operating outside your comfort zone to love someone else, somehow you grow, become better, more mature.

Do you have a Shirley's Fun Fact?

That's basically what I was going to share.

That's my end thing.

Oh, for the fun fact.

Well, I do have one other thing.

You got all those megapixels on your TV, so start to see in color.

What?

Don't see in black and white.

This is not the 1950s.

There's so many nuances to those arguments.

You better tap it.

Shirley, megapixels are how a camera takes the quality of a photograph.

They're called pixels.

Okay, wait.

Why would megapixels be wrong?

Megapixels is like how many pixels you're fitting into a frame.

You got autumn pixels on your whatever devices start to see in color.

There's so much more to each conflict than you think.

There's so many layers.

There's how my mama hurt me.

There's how this kid called me a name.

There's these things that are subconscious that I might not even remember.

So just know it's not all about you and the hurt.

It's the hurt that you inflicted on them.

There's more to it.

Cliffhanger for next time.

Yeah.

Thank you guys for joining us as we journeyed through black, white, and red.

Thank you, Shirley, for coming up with a cool name for the episode.

We'll close in prayer.

Father, thank you for the opportunity to share some of these things with the community that we have.

Thank you for being generous and teaching us.

Thank you for your patience with us through all of this.

I pray that we'd extend, that you'd give us the ability to extend even a little bit of that patience to our spouses because it can be so hard when we want to be loved and cared for and we're not feeling that to want to extend any kind of grace to the other person.

But I pray that we would take that step of maturity and do that and benefit from it.

In your name we pray.